Exquisite Tweets from @yoz, @tomcoates, @bobbiejohnson, @annapickard, @r4isstatic

Yoz Grahame

@yoz @Zoonie I'm going to sound appalling here, but it's interesting to me that the article itself and the article quoted disagree so much.

#2 6:48pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to yoz

Tom Coates

@tomcoates I think I'm missing one of the two articles you're talking about, but don't know which...

#3 6:50pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Echofon in reply to tomcoates

Yoz Grahame

@yoz @Zoonie I've noticed this more in gender debates than sexuality ones. I'm not sure what to make of it.

#4 6:53pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to yoz

Tom Coates

@yoz This is the one quoted in it: stavvers.wordpress.com/2012/01/01/ire…

#5 6:53pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to yoz

Tom Coates

@yoz They agree that it's sexist, and on a few of the reasons. Then there's this huge tract of disagreement too that the guardian skips over

#6 6:54pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to yoz

Tom Coates

@yoz It reminds me a bit of the arguments over whether Harry Potter was sexist because Hermione wasn't the star.

#7 6:55pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to yoz

Tom Coates

@yoz She absolutely positively *could* have been the star, but she's also a hard-working, clever, politically active, brilliant woman.

#8 6:56pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to yoz

Tom Coates

@yoz In a space where gay people are often happy if they're not ultra camp or the coded villain in movies, it can get quite confusing.

#9 6:57pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to yoz

Tom Coates

@yoz Again - not to say that Sherlock wasn't sexist, because the decision in the first place to make her a sex worker was just unnecessary.

#10 6:58pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to yoz

Tom Coates

@tomcoates They all agree that the modern version makes Adler more disempowered & male-dependent than the *Victorian* original.

#11 6:59pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Echofon in reply to tomcoates

Yoz Grahame

@tomcoates If it was a one-off, then OK; unfortunately this stuff threads through all of Moffat's recent work. Once you start noticing it...

#12 7:00pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Echofon in reply to tomcoates

Yoz Grahame

@yoz Yeah, but they don't agree *why*.

#13 7:00pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to yoz

Tom Coates

@yoz I honestly think that the few egregious examples which he has provided have made people over-read some of the rest though.

#14 7:01pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to yoz

Tom Coates

@tomcoates Really? I see them totally agreeing on that: 1) her emotional weakness betraying her 2) having Holmes save her at the very end

#15 7:03pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Echofon in reply to tomcoates

Yoz Grahame

@yoz I guess I'm trying to work out where the balance point is - exactly how sexist *is* he? More than we'd like and less than people think?

#16 7:03pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to yoz

Tom Coates

@yoz Course in the film, she's also under the guidance of Moriarty and just gets killed.

#17 7:05pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to yoz

Tom Coates

@yoz But I mean, that conversation with Watson is interesting there. They *both* love him, but neither wants to shag him.

#18 7:06pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to yoz

Tom Coates

@tomcoates Good question. Dear (off the top of my head) @naomialderman & @charliejane: Is Moffat's work more sexist than other male writers?

#19 7:07pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Echofon in reply to tomcoates

Yoz Grahame

@yoz And having Holmes rescue her at the end, well, if you're looking for a good positive happy twist at the end, then it's not a bad one.

#20 7:07pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to yoz

Tom Coates

@yoz Those bits, honestly, don't worry me. The bits that worry me are the bits where she only has power as a sex worker and gets naked a lot

#21 7:07pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to yoz

Tom Coates

@yoz @naomialderman @charliejane That's not quite the question I'd have asked. It's where is he effectively pro-feminist.

#22 7:08pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to yoz

Tom Coates

@tomcoates Disagree - I found it less satisfying, having her enigma/power fully unravelled so fast. She was more interesting before.

#23 7:09pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Echofon in reply to tomcoates

Yoz Grahame

@yoz Example - the recent Christmas episode. Personally, its rather tepid mother/nature/power rang false to me, but she's still the power.

#24 7:11pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to yoz

Tom Coates

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@tomcoates @yoz I don't think that means much: it's possible to be both reverent and sexist at the same time. Cf religions of many stripes.

#30 7:19pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for iPad in reply to tomcoates

Bobbie Johnson

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@bobbiejohnson @yoz Again, no one's denying he does sexist things, but the current debate is either/or - is he sexist or not.

#32 7:19pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to bobbiejohnson

Tom Coates

@bobbiejohnson @yoz I'm looking for nuance. I want to know whether anything he does is *non*-sexist. How imbalanced is he?

#33 7:20pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to bobbiejohnson

Tom Coates

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@tomcoates @bobbiejohnson @yoz Hey, bobbie, if you happen to be looking at the twitters, can I have a cup of raspberry tea when you come up?

#36 7:27pm Jan 3rd 2012 via web in reply to tomcoates

anna pickard

@tomcoates @bobbiejohnson @yoz I'm not sure why I cc'ed you all one that. Let's imagine it was an ironic comment on sexism.

#37 7:27pm Jan 3rd 2012 via web in reply to tomcoates

anna pickard

@annapickard @bobbiejohnson @yoz Mm. Tea.

#38 7:27pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to annapickard

Tom Coates

@tomcoates Nah, not playing that game: keeping score is a fool's errand. Moral peccadilloes don't destroy the intrinsic value of art...

#39 7:27pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for iPad in reply to tomcoates

Bobbie Johnson

@tomcoates ...so we don't have to come up with excuses or reasons to help artists like vault our personal thresholds. It is what it is.

#40 7:29pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for iPad in reply to tomcoates

Bobbie Johnson

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@annapickard your request has been noted.

#42 7:31pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for iPad in reply to annapickard

Bobbie Johnson

@bobbiejohnson Hurray!

#43 7:33pm Jan 3rd 2012 via web in reply to bobbiejohnson

anna pickard

@tomcoates And finally... RT @naomialderman: this may put it in context: scotsman.com/news/time_lad_… "Women are needy", S Moffatt.

#44 7:35pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Echofon in reply to tomcoates

Yoz Grahame

@yoz @naomialderman Without doubt, I'm aware of Moffatt's stupid public statements. And he's undeniably sexist at times.

#45 7:36pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to yoz

Tom Coates

@yoz @naomialderman My sole question here is whether or not we now read every female character in the light of that clumsiness.

#46 7:37pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to yoz

Tom Coates

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@yoz @naomialderman And ignore those things he does that *are* positive.

#48 7:41pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to yoz

Tom Coates

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@tomcoates @yoz @naomialderman we don't have to, but it's little surprise that we do. All humans have their tolerances and intolerances.

#50 7:43pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for iPad in reply to tomcoates

Bobbie Johnson

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@Zoonie @yoz @naomialderman I think all you have to do is look at the Twilight books to see that female writers aren't necessarily pro-woman

#52 7:46pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to Zoonie

Tom Coates

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@naomialderman @yoz Definitely agree with the womb power one. But still think River and Amy are strong female characters.

#56 7:50pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to naomialderman

Tom Coates

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@naomialderman I mean, the show, in a way, is about the impact an amazing alien man has on the people around him. As is Sherlock.

#58 7:51pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to naomialderman

Tom Coates

@tomcoates @naomialderman @yoz Sally Sparrow?

#59 7:52pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to tomcoates

r4isstatic

Paul Rissen

@naomialderman I find that *very* difficult to understand. Yes, she was a 'kissagram', clearly designed to get the dads at home excited.

#60 7:52pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to naomialderman

Tom Coates

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@naomialderman But she's also tough, clever, able. If anything Rory is a bit of a fantasy sex object (at least to me)

#62 7:54pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to naomialderman

Tom Coates

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@naomialderman I guess my sense of it was that she was a woman who didn't really know what she wanted from her life, and was taking odd jobs

#65 8:25pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to naomialderman

Tom Coates

@naomialderman That she thought it was a laugh, but was also a bit embarrassed about it because she's a normal human.

#66 8:26pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to naomialderman

Tom Coates

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@naomialderman Yay! Although one of the things I find most interesting is the asymmetry.

#68 8:53pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to naomialderman

Tom Coates

@naomialderman And this is a good example. Swap the gender of a character and make them do the same thing. Means totally different things.

#69 8:54pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to naomialderman

Tom Coates

@naomialderman @tomcoates Hey! You guys seem to have reached some kind of point of communal recognition! *Applause*. Are we done?

#70 8:54pm Jan 3rd 2012 via web in reply to naomialderman

anna pickard

@tomcoates @naomialderman Oh no wait.

#71 8:55pm Jan 3rd 2012 via web in reply to tomcoates

anna pickard

@annapickard @naomialderman God, I thought we were having a nice private conversation that no one was reading but us and @yoz.

#72 8:55pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to annapickard

Tom Coates

@tomcoates @naomialderman No no, the rest of the world that loves you both is here too, silently taking sides.

#73 8:56pm Jan 3rd 2012 via web in reply to tomcoates

anna pickard

@annapickard I think we're totally on the same side! Pro-Who, Anti-Sexism and Grumpy with Moffat when he's behaving badly.

#74 8:59pm Jan 3rd 2012 via Twitter for Mac in reply to annapickard